OYUMAA de Jong - On Structuring US$25 Billion Worth of Sustainable Finance Transactions at Rabobank in the Netherlands
Interviewed by Gema Gerelsaikhan. Photographed by Sasha Busaidy, Mechteld Brasz
Get to know Oyumaa de Jong, a Sustainable Finance Specialist at Rabobank in the Netherlands. As of date, she has been involved with structuring and delivering US$25 billion worth of sustainable finance debt.Read about her journey from the Netherlands to Mongolia, Australia, Kenya, and Tanzania.
Based in Amsterdam, Oyumaa has a B.Sc. in Liberal Arts & Sciences (majors: Mathematics & Environmental Science, minors: Philosophy & Political Science) from University College Utrecht; and an M.Sc. in Global Business & Sustainability from Rotterdam School of Management. She is trilingual in Mongolian, English and Dutch.
Full name: Oyumaa Tushïta Esui de Jong
Hobby Alumni: Class of 2012
Higher Education: BSc from University College Utrecht, and MSc from Rotterdam School of Management.
Languages: Mongolian, English, Dutch
Sector(s): Sustainable Finance
Current Workplace: Rabobank
Past Workplaces: Internships (Power Providers, Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Rabobank)
Frequented Website: www.ft.com www.catawiki.com (online auction house - sort of between eBay and Christie’s/Sotheby’s, mostly looking at books and other antique stuff)
3 Books To Recommend: How to Hide an Empire (Daniel Immerwahr), the Romanovs (Simon Montefiore), the King of Oil (Daniel Amman) - a book including one of the only personal interviews with Marc Rich (the guy who founded Glencore) he was on the FBI top 10 most wanted list and ended up being pardoned by Clinton, very interesting/controversial
3 Movies or TV-Shows To Recommend: Succession, the Boys, His Dark Materials
3 Songs You Are Listening To Most Right Now: Is It True (Tame Impala), Never Come Back (Caribou), Sundress (A$AP Rocky)
3 Apps To Recommend: Strava, Duolingo, HUJI
3 Podcasts or YouTube Channels To Recommend: BBC World Service
EDUCATION
How many years have you studied at Hobby School, and where have you studied before and/or after Hobby?
It was very brief - only for about 6 months when I was 11. I studied in the Netherlands before and after that.
What kind of a student were you when you were in Hobby?
I remember being quite overwhelmed because I wasn’t used to the educational system.
“In the Netherlands, most primary schools focus on learning to make your own weekly planning and finishing assigned tasks.
When I came to Hobby, it was way more structured and actually more like high school than primary school.”
When I visited you in the Netherlands, I remember you were doing gymnastics and then ballet later. I was admiring your dedication you have for different sports. I know your grandmother was doing gymnastics semi-professionally. Do you still practice?
Yeah, I did ballet for 9 years. I started too late to get “really advanced” though sadly, but I still really enjoyed it!
You were at various schools in Mongolia and the Netherlands. How different were they from one another apart from the difference you just explained? Hobby is considered a very modern school in Mongolia.
I would say the largest difference is the structure. In the Netherlands, there’s a big difference between primary and high schools. After primary school, you take this big test at the age of 12, which places you in this tier system of 5-6 levels. Based on how well you did in this test and your teacher’s assessment, it’s determined which high school you can go to. In Mongolia, everyone’s put together from primary school throughout high school, which could cause some students lagging behind or others getting bored easily.
What’s your fondest memory at Hobby?
Dutch primary school doesn’t really have different subjects yet, so you miss that aspect of going to class with your classmates and taking different subjects. I remember enjoying the closeness, we had a really fun class.
Favorite classes were Mongolian script, PE, and the science classes. In the Netherlands, I didn’t attend an international primary/high school, so I really enjoyed speaking English and Mongolian. They only formally start teaching English from the age of 12. I also enjoyed taking the school bus, as that was new for me. All freezing waiting for the bus (ha Mongolian winter).
After graduation, why did you pick University of Utrecht for your bachelor’s degree?
I was doubting between maths, physics and astronomy, but I was also interested in social studies, like sustainability, politics, and philosophy etc. I felt a little claustrophobic because I had to choose. I’d been looking at the US school system, the Liberal Arts & Sciences system, where you can combine different subjects in a single degree. There’s a few schools in the Netherlands that offer this, and University College Utrecht was one of them. I went to an open day and felt an instant click. They only admit about 250 students a year, so it’s a relatively small honours college. The classes consist of about 20 students, the setting is small and interactive.
When you were young, what did you want to be when you grow up?
I wanted to study quantum physics and work for NASA.
Wow, I never had such a dream when I was a kid. I didn’t even know what NASA was when I was a kid. What happened?
Yeah, haha. When I turned 16, I started the application process for all the top US schools to study astrophysics. This was also when my interest in the US school system started, as I could study astrophysics as well as other social science subjects.
“I ended up applying to MIT, Yale, Princeton, Brown and Stanford and ended up getting 4 out of 5 interviews, but I didn’t get accepted, which is understandable given that so many kids apply and there are so few spots for internationals.
I think that was my first heartbreak (ha), but also a huge learning experience. ”
I was obviously really upset at the time, but the experience did teach me a lot, especially in terms of time management, and figuring out what I wanted to do in general. As they say: rejection is sometimes the best teacher. I still ended up studying in the US school system and figured out the physics/maths track wasn’t the side I wanted to go into after all. I’m very happy with where I am today, and I probably wouldn’t have been here without that experience.
What did you study for your bachelors at Utrecht?
Liberal Arts & Sciences, majoring in Mathematics and Environmental Science with minors in Political Science and Philosophy.
Why Science?
My grandmother and parents are both scientists.
Did your family influence you a lot?
Definitely! They were always quite adamant for me to study something related to science, or at least to try it out to see if I liked it. They never pressured me, but their advice/experience definitely influenced me a lot.
But then why Philosophy?
“Lots of people think philosophy is wishy washy, but it actually teaches you a lot of useful soft skills: logical thinking, deduction, and spot-on essay writing. ”
I especially loved reading the different types of literature, processing it and then forming your own opinion on it. It really teaches you to question and identify your own prejudices.
How did you prepare for SATs and TOEFL? Any tips you’d like to give to 16 year olds?
Regarding TOEFL, I would say most Hobby students will do very well because the English level is generally high. Just don’t underestimate time management: the questions aren’t hard, but you just have very little time for some sections.
For the SATs, I didn’t have a tutor, but I definitely think it would have helped. Time management is really important here too, and also understanding the types of questions that will be asked. I ended up focusing a lot on “studying” when I probably could have focused more on only practicing exams, as most of the content you’ve probably already covered in school.
If an 16-18 year old asks you what he or she should study? What would you advise?
I would really recommend doing at least a few courses in maths/physics (or any other science courses), even if you don’t think it’s interesting, it’s always useful to have some sort of affinity with numbers for future internships/jobs. It’s a good way to sharpen your analytical skills. Apart from that, I really enjoyed studying different topics at the same time. It taught me a lot about time management, but also being able to see things from different perspectives. It’s helpful to have an interdisciplinary background because you’re able to connect the dots. By trying out all sorts of things, you also get the opportunity to figure out what you really want and like.
What kind of jobs are the future jobs do you think? Any trends you’re seeing?
“Sustainability itself is a relatively new field, but it’s applicable to anything and will be, if not, is already everywhere (think: sustainability auditing, CSR/ESG departments in companies, sustainable finance, climate diplomacy, etc.). ”
A trend would definitely be the availability of better sustainability/ESG data. I think there’s still a lot to be gained there. Studying sustainability with an emphasis on data will get you a long way.
Did you get scholarships? What is the tuition fee like in the Netherlands?
No scholarships. As a Dutch/EEA citizen, I only paid about 2,000 euros per year for my masters. For internationals, the tuition would be around 15,000 euros.
Were you the first Mongolian student?
Within my bachelor’s study, I think so! The college was only founded in 1997, so high probability. Within my master’s degree, not so sure, it’s a pretty big school.
Do you have high ranking schools in the Netherlands?
Definitely. My Rotterdam School of Management ranks #66 in Global MBA ranking.
What did you study at Rotterdam School of Management?
I studied Global Business & Sustainability. The degree was relatively new at the time, I think it had only been around a few years, but it’s really skyrocketed as so many people are interested in the overlap between business & sustainability nowadays. I had a positive experience: the degree was quite theoretical, lots of reading, but I liked that. It’s a constantly changing landscape so it was good to get fully up to speed with what had happened in the field and expected trends. The practical aspects were also useful: you had to prepare a lot of case studies and we analysed a lot of real life cases and instances of sustainability mismanagement. I still use a lot of the theory I learnt during my degree in my current job. My classmates ended up in all kinds of sectors, like government, consulting, finance, etc.
Did you do any exchange programs?
I went to Perth, Australia during my bachelor’s degree.
Differences between Australian and Dutch educational systems?
They really are pretty laid back, not in a way they don’t take studies seriously, but just in about everything else, which was very refreshing. I had a great time at UCU, but the pressure was also very high and because it’s so small, it tended to get a little intense from time to time. So exchange was a nice change of scenery.
The emphasis was on being outside as much as possible - Australians really enjoy life, so I definitely soaked in a lot of sun whilst being there, because we don’t get much of that in the Netherlands (ha). I took Environmental Science and Political Science classes, all focusing on topics I didn’t cover at UCU - like environmental modeling and politics from an Australian perspective.
Did you have a gap year? Is it popular in the Netherlands? Would you recommend it?
It really depends on your own preference. I know a lot of people that did, but also many who didn’t. I didn’t do it, because I had already been accepted to my master’s degree and was happy to continue studying. I felt like I was still really young and in the flow of studying and thought I’ll just go straight into it, because if I start working now, it would be harder for me to go back to academics.
“If you want to do an internship in the Netherlands, you often have to be registered at a university. So I would actually recommend doing a gap year during your master’s degree. ”
My master’s degree was 1 year, but I ended up doing it in 2 years, so I could do internships in between. I did 2 internships in Kenya and Tanzania in that year and I think that was the best decision I made. I was worried to graduate with no experience, but after taking that “gap year”, I felt way more prepared with practical knowledge and had a better idea of what I wanted to do.
Can you tell us what you did in Kenya and Tanzania?
It was a programme on international development that I applied to through my bachelor’s degree. It was a combination of field research and an internship. During the field research, we traveled through Kenya & Tanzania and got to listen to a wide array of guest lecturers, all sharing their ideas and thoughts on international development.
Afterwards, I did my internship at a solar energy company, Power Providers, and did research on how to implement sustainable solar water pumping for village or agricultural use. Me and a fellow intern developed three business models on how to implement this. It was really interesting, because we got to interview 20+ stakeholders. The programme overall highlighted many difficulties and faults in the Western donor/charity system:
“Many donors/charities do not properly do their research and would for example dump a water pump somewhere, without thinking about the aspect of maintenance (in case it breaks) and responsibility for the pump in the future, dismantling the sustainability of such projects.”
This is obviously a more widespread problem and I cannot vouch for fully understanding the situation or knowing all solutions to it, but I still learnt a lot about the faulty mechanisms of the way international development programmes are currently in place (trade vs aid, etc.) and it questioned many of my prejudices/beliefs.
So that was your internships during your bachelor’s degree. Where did you do your internships during your masters?
During my Master’s degree, I interned at a small consulting company, focusing on (agricultural) trade between East and West. During my “gap year”, I interned at the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, within the department for Economic Governance and Trade Policy, focusing on the international business conduct agreements. These are multi-stakeholder initiatives between government, NGOs and companies to improve sustainability within the supply chains. I specifically worked on agreements in the metallurgy, coal, oil & gas, and banking sectors. I learnt a lot about the different perspectives at play and how to go about such initiatives: juggling everyone’s different interests and trying to find a compromise towards furthering sustainability in the chain. Especially the question on regulation was an interesting one: do we leave such things up to the market or should everything be fully regulated? Through this internship (as I was involved in the banking working groups), I first became interested in sustainability in the banking sector.
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I wanted to know more about what banks were doing in terms of sustainability, but also how this can be applied in finance. After all, shouldn’t we start at the core where businesses/projects are financed?”
CAREER
What were your first paying jobs?
At Rabobank!
So you didn’t spend that much time looking for a job, after the graduation?
“I was indeed lucky to be able to skip the unemployment phase after graduation. After the internship at the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I did a 9 month internship at Rabobank (also during my “gap year”). ”
The internship was a bit longer than expected because I ended up liking it so much and writing my master’s thesis there (“How do actors in the sustainable finance market respond to the expected arrival of hard regulation?”). It was a bit of an intense period, because I was working full time and finishing my degree on the side, but it was all worth it. After completing my degree, a position opened up that I could immediately fill.
Where do you see yourself in 5 years?
I try not to be fixated on making the “right” choice. What I found is that it is better to just try, do it and learn from practice what you like/are good at: any experience, even bad ones, will be valuable one way or another - like my short-lived astrophysics career (ha).
“By trying different sectors with my internships, I learned what I like and what I don’t like. It’s very hard to know in advance whether you like something or not.
Now that I have experience in both the public as well as private sector, I have a better understanding of what is and isn’t possible on both sides.”
I never thought I’d work in banking 3-4 years ago - so in that sense, I like to be open towards more unexpected opportunities and possibilities. So to answer your question, I’m very happy I ended up in this sector, it’s the perfect balance between a commercial job that has ties to the real world, and every project is different in how it ultimately adds value in a green/social sense. I think I’ll definitely be staying in sustainable finance. A lot is happening, both from a market and legislative perspective, and I love the fast pace of it. But we’re definitely not there yet, and it’s really a movement I would like to further contribute to.
So how is the finance industry changing? And tell us more about what exactly you do at Rabobank?
Our team is embedded in the debt side of the wider Rabobank capital markets team. To date, we have structured and delivered US$25 billion in terms of sustainable debt issued by different large parties, i.e.: loans, bonds, private placements, etc.
“We help clients, ranging from large corporates to other banks or governments or municipalities, incorporate a sustainability element in the way they borrow money from investors/banks. There are different ways to incorporate sustainability in your debt structure. ”
Let’s start with sustainability-linked loans: since 2017, companies have started to incorporate sustainability KPIs in their loan documentation and this movement has ever since been booming (in the Food & Agricultural sector alone, in 2019, sustainability-linked loans made up about 9% of total loans issued in this sector).
“Sustainability loans basically work as follows: the company, together with the lending banks, set up sustainability KPIs (such as: reducing carbon footprint, reducing water usage, increase % of women employed, etc.) and if a company performs well on these targets, they receive a discount on the margin they pay on their loan. ”
Green/social bonds are slightly different. Issuing parties need to write up a green/social bond framework, in which investors can read what the party will spend the money they are borrowing on. The money can be spent on assets/projects related to renewable energy, energy efficiency, but also social ends such as improving access to essential services for specific target groups in society. Overall, there are different ways to tie debt to sustainability, so our team is basically advising clients on how to do this from A to Z: what kind of projects are deemed sustainable, what types of sustainability KPIs you can use, what investors they can potentially reach with such bonds, etc.
How is the sustainability element changing the financial and banking sector in general in the future? Can you give us specific examples in terms of Rabobank, as well as broader perspective on how the world is changing in terms of this?
We have seen that parties that issue such sustainability-related debt receive a lot of positive media attention, as it’s a great way to highlight what you are doing in terms of sustainability, but that they were also able to broaden their investor base.
“Overall, sustainable finance is booming: last year, the market surpassed US$ 1 trillion in terms of sustainable debt issued. Many institutional investors have a mandate to invest in green/social paper nowadays. ”
The regulatory space is also fast changing. Within Europe and its sustainable finance action plan, the so-called EU Green Taxonomy has been announced, which is basically a list outlining which economic activities can be deemed green and which can’t. So this is steering towards more and more capital streams towards green projects. It’s not really a question about a lack of money, it’s rather about the lack and identification of sufficient, profitable green/social projects. So what this taxonomy does is that it helps determine the green projects, and creates some sort of streamlining of the market, a more common definition of what’s considered green, to in the long run help investors where to put their money and guide other market players.
So basically the market is shifting towards further including and reporting on non financial metrics in financial reports.
“Climate risks are being seen as actual risks by investors. It is not just a push from the public anymore. So in the long term, if you don’t go green, these large institutions will stop investing in you. Blackrock for example has committed to place sustainability at the centre of its investment approach...”
… it’s yet to be seen how this will fully operationalise, but having these sorts of public commitments from the largest asset manager in the world really does something. So you have the push from the public, regulators, as well as investors now.
What does your day-to-day look like at Rabobank?
Every day is different – as cliche as that sounds. Our team currently consists of 5 people, so that means you get a lot of responsibility very quickly, an aspect I really appreciate and enjoy. I do a lot of market research, ranging from looking at what’s happening in the news; what parties in the market are doing; what types of new financing structures are used; but also what’s happening in terms of legislative changes – you just need to make sure you’re fully up to date about everything.
Concretely, a large part of my job is client servicing and can be compared to a consultant/advisor role in terms of sustainable finance. This means we are constantly speaking to existing/new clients regarding what’s happening in the market and how they can incorporate a sustainability feature in their debt structure.
My day can be split up into: preparation or executing client meetings and market research. The prep part consists of making presentations to pitch for a role in a deal, and when you’ve received the deal, working on structuring the sustainability element in the financing. This can be: writing up green/social/sustainability bond frameworks (such frameworks are always shared online for external stakeholders, mostly investors, to see), preparing investor presentations/roadshows (in case of bonds) or presentations for other banks in the lending groups (in case of loans). You are basically advising your clients on what types of sustainability KPIs/metrics or investments/assets/projects (capex/opex) they can tie/use for their financing.
I really like the way this job requires knowledge of a lot of different aspects, as you have to be able to process a lot of information and make it workable, and overall just trying to underline the importance of placing sustainability at the core of your operations.
“It’s really interesting to hear how parties view sustainability and how far they are in their journey. You really get a hands-on view of what’s happening and try to come up with a tailored solution.”
My work hours also very much differ, one week can be extremely hectic and another week can be more quiet: it’s very result/demand-driven, so we work by the deadline.
Sustainability is becoming really popular these days and everyone’s talking about it. But then not many people know how to incorporate this into their business and think just having a CSR department is enough, donating money here and there. How do you measure this?
On the loan side, there are different ways to incorporate sustainability into your loan documentation. So most of the companies borrowing money these days are committing to reaching 3-5 sustainability KPIs. When they reach these KPIs, the margin decreases basically, meaning they get a discount on the margin they pay each year. So it is about 2-5 basis points, it is not a lot of money, but there is a bit of financial incentive there.
“The Sustainability KPIs have to be really material, meaning it has to be incorporated in their business model inherently, i.e. carbon, waste, water footprints and hiring more and more females etc.
Donating money or giving away food, is not a KPI considered to be material. ”
So is it only the Dutch banks moving towards this or it is like a worldwide movement?
Every large investment bank is doing this. We think it is going to become pretty much mainstream in 3-4 years.
So Rabobank provides financing to companies all around the world? Not just Dutch companies?
Yes, globally, we work together with our teams in the US, Australia, Asia, etc.
Do you ever think about working in Mongolia or in Asia in general?
I do. I was thinking about doing an internship in Mongolia during my bachelor’s studies, but that ended up not working out in terms of dates. Besides Mongolia, sector wise Hong Kong and Singapore would be very interesting. Definitely at some point in the future.
FUN QUESTIONS
Recently I read a book about Netflix called “No Rules Rule” and there it talks about Dutch people being the most straightforward people and then the Americans coming in (Americans say at least 3 positive things and then jump into the negative thing and Dutch people don’t even say any nice things, but straight into the problem) and then Singaporeans and then Japanese being the opposite of Dutch people. Is this true? Where would you place Mongolians? Are we more like Singaporeans or Americans or Japanese?
“Dutch people are super straightforward - often no sugarcoating. But at the same time, it’s good because everyone is honest, if your work sucks, it sucks and you will know it sucks.”
So it is really good for learning and knowing where you are at, to put it in a positive way. But Mongolians are quite straightforward too. From my experience, people also don’t really sugarcoat anything. Or maybe it’s our family, our family is so straightforward, they really tell you how it is (ha).
May we ask if you are single or married? What are your thoughts on family planning in Mongolia?
I’d prefer not to answer.
How do you relax? What’s your hobby or where can we find you when you are not working?
I love plants, really made it into a hobby the last 1-2 years (ha). I also like to go to museums, especially during COVID, because it was one of the few things you could do here during lockdowns (mostly interested in periods between the 17-19th century. Modern art is not really my jam). I read a lot, mostly non fiction. I try to workout quite a bit, go for walks with friends. COVID restrictions were not that bad, so often have dinners with friends (most live within cycling distance). And the usual stuff: Netflix.
Who is your role model in Mongolia and one outside of Mongolia? A living person and why?
I’d say my family in Mongolia, especially my great-grandfather Togtokh Ganjuur. He had a very interesting life and his presence is still very vivid. He was such a prominent figure when I was small and I remember how he had an impact on everyone. He was overall just very cool.
Outside of Mongolia, oh that’s a difficult one, I have quite a few. But one of them is definitely Christine Lagarde - her career, especially as a woman in finance, has been a very interesting and impressive one, especially her switch from the IMF to the ECB, during such a tumultuous time.
Do you have any mentors?
I’d say my current boss. We have a really good relationship and I’ve known him for almost three years now. When I started interning, he just got appointed as Head of Sustainable Capital Markets, so we basically started working here at the same time. He’s really taught me a lot, but overall, we have a lot of fun in what we do - which I think is so important.
If you could compare yourself to another animal, what animal would you be?
A sloth cause I like to sleep whenever I can and my friends say I’m quite slow with understanding jokes ha.
What’s the best life advice that you’ve received? Who gave this advice?
I think it would be a combination between “don’t be afraid”, “the dots will connect” and “just enjoy the ride”.
“There’s really no right decision, and if it doesn’t work, you can always turn it around.”
I remember that I always became a little paralysed at making the “right” decisions, so I’m trying to let that go more now.
A personal advice you would like to extend to fellow Hobby Alumni?
“Every time I read an interview on Hobby Alumni, I’m like “wow everyone’s doing such impressive stuff”. I guess I don’t have any advice, rather a compliment? I think it’s very cool to read other people’s perspectives on things, especially coming from such different sectors.”
I think platforms like this enable people to learn about other people’s perspectives and create a leeway in getting in touch with others. I otherwise maybe wouldn’t have known specific things about these people, if these interviews were not here. So I really appreciate Hobby Alumni network.
I also find it quite hard not to be part of my family’s daily life in Mongolia and I really miss my family/Mongolia, so it’s a great way to stay up to date.
How would you define a successful person?
Being good at something you enjoy - this often translates to people who are really able to “bring it all together”, you see this in good managers: they inspire others.
What are your good and bad habits?
I think I’m a pretty optimistic and cheerful person and try to see the humor in things whenever I can. I’m also very quick, but that can also work against me sometimes - still trying to find a balance and sit back more (laughs). This really sounds like the classic “I am just such a perfectionist” interview answer.
Funniest story at work you can share with us?
I suppose the usual trousers rip stories, only happened to me twice so far luckily, but both obviously during really unfortunate times - will spare you the details (ha).
If you can pass 1 law globally, what would it be?
Free healthcare for all.
Now if you can fix 1 problem in Mongolia, what would it be?
I recently watched a documentary (“the Wheel”) which highlighted the Mongolian high suicide rates among people living in poverty. I suppose it would be this, and the combination of homelessness and alcoholism.
If you could have dinner with anyone dead or alive who would it be, and why? Also, what would be your first question?
Also a hard one, but as a starter it would be Marie-Antoinette - I’d ask her about her role in French Revolution (did you really say “let them eat cake”?) or Stephen Hawking - for obvious reasons.
Name 3 conspiracy theories you believe in.
I don’t believe in conspiracy theories.
Who would you recommend to interview next from Hobby Alumni? And Why?
I think Batzul Gerelsaikhan (Class of 2006) didn’t give the interview yet, right? I’d recommend her, because I always look up to her. She is a real change maker and connector in whatever she does.
Also Bilegt Tumur (Class of 2012), a friend of mine, who is in London right now. We’ve known each other from Nairamdal summer camp, but we realised later we were in the same class when we were in Hobby (laughs). I think I left before he joined the class. He will have a different outtake and will be refreshing to have other perspectives as well!
“We have seen that parties that issue such sustainability-related debt receive a lot of positive media attention, as it’s a great way to highlight what you are doing in terms of sustainability, but that they were also able to broaden their investor base...
Overall, there are different ways to tie debt to sustainability, so our team is basically advising clients on how to do this from A to Z: what kind of projects are deemed sustainable, what types of sustainability KPIs you can use, what investors they can potentially reach with such bonds, etc. ”